Tagged: apologetics

Protestants or Scripture, you decide

Protestants say that you need not keep the Commandments. Scripture says:

Matthew 19:17
King James Version (KJV)
17And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

Protestants say that faith alone justifies. Scripture says:

Romans 2:13
King James Version (KJV)13(For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

Protestants say that you should judge yourself saved. Scripture says:

1 Corinthians 4:5
King James Version (KJV)5Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.

Protestants say you don’t need to obey anyone but Christ. Scripture says:

Hebrews 13:17
King James Version (KJV)17Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.

Protestants say that you need not be baptized to be saved. Scripture says:

Mark 16:16
King James Version (KJV)16He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Who do you believe, the Protestants or Scripture?

Judged according to our works

If we are not saved by works, why does St. Paul say,

2 Corinthians 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

Notice that he includes himself.  He says, “we” must all appear.

I’m thinking that means that Jesus Christ is going to Judge our salvation according to our works.  And it says it elsewhere as well:

Romans 2:6-12King James Version (KJV)

6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;

Prayer to the Saints in the New Covenant

My response to Ken over at Apologetics and Agape,  where he asks the proverbial question,

Should Roman Catholics pray to Mary and dead saints, or be using statues to pray to Mary or dead saints?

Hello Ken,

From my perspective, the big problem is the way in which Protestants and Catholic approach Scripture. In this case, the New Testament.

Prayer to the Saints rests upon the idea, that all who die in Christ are alive in Christ.
John 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

Therefore, we are permitted to pray for their intercession in our behalf because they are, in a certain sense, more alive than we, since they are closer to the source of life. And besides, we are walking with them upon Mount Sion:

Hebrews 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, 23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, 24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

All of us who are baptized, walk upon that Mountain, with the Saints. It would be rude not to speak with our brethren. Ruder still to deny their sanctity.

Scripture says that we, who believe in Christ are members of His Body:
Romans 12:5 (KJV)
5 So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.

So, unless you believe that Jesus is dead, you must believe that the Saints are alive. All of them. We don’t fall off the Body of Christ when we die. Do we?

Those are just a few of the Scriptures which show that the Saints of God are alive. There are many more. In addition though, there are Scriptures which show that the Saints in the after life are aware of that which is happening on earth.

Luke 16:24 (KJV)
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

If you are familiar with the story of Lazarus and the Rich Man, you know that Jesus recounts the story of three people who have died. And yet, they are conversing with one another. In addition, Father Abraham expresses knowledge of the condition of Dives’ (aka the rich man’s) brothers.

Hebrews 12:1 (KJV)
1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,

Notice that we are surrounded by witnesses. The term “witness” is here used as a double entendre. First of all, they witnessed their faith by their life. But if that were all, they would not surround us.

The fact that they surround us is evidence of the fact that “witnesses” is being used also in the sense of one who gathers information and reports it to another. These are spirits of men made perfect amongst whom we walk, right now (Heb 22-24).

Don’t believe it? Have you not read in Scripture what Elisha said?
2 Kings 6:17
And Elisha prayed, and said, LORD, I pray thee, open his eyes, that he may see. And the LORD opened the eyes of the young man; and he saw: and, behold, the mountain was full of horses and chariots of fire round about Elisha.

Now, there are some who say that they feel confident that they are worthy to approach Jesus and the Father, without going through our advocates. Then you should read in Scripture:
Matthew 23:12
King James Version (KJV)
12 And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted.

Note the next verse that I will post, these men approached Jesus with confidence. What did Jesus say?

Matthew 7:21-23
King James Version (KJV)
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

And then there are these fellows who approached the Father in prayer:
Job 42:8
King James Version (KJV)
8 Therefore take unto you now seven bullocks and seven rams, and go to my servant Job, and offer up for yourselves a burnt offering; and my servant Job shall pray for you: for him will I accept: lest I deal with you after your folly, in that ye have not spoken of me the thing which is right, like my servant Job.

So, that is why, I believe the Catholic Teaching of the Communion of Saints.

I said something rather good before coffee this morning, what was that?

Oh yeah.

I was sort of taken aback by a Protestant who objected to our faith in the Church.  That’s not what I was surprised about.  I was surprised by the fact that he objected to his obvious faith in Calvin and Luther.

When he objected to our faith in the Church, I retorted that there was little difference between our faith in the Church and his faith in Martin, Luther and the document called the Westminister Confession of Faith (WCF).

Anyway, my answer went something like this:

De Maria said,

November 25, 2014 at 1:07 pm

Don said,

November 25, 2014 at 12:35 pm

De Maria 1306,

“Depend upon” vs. “reject” is a false dichotomy.

How about “accept” vs “reject”? I said:

Why don’t you answer that part of the question?

If you don’t and if you accept them and rely upon them, how am I bearing false witness?

Do you accept the teachings of Calvin or not? Do you accept the teachings of the WCF of not?

No, I am not going to answer your loaded questions.

Where is the question loaded? Do you not believe the WCF? If you do, is faith, believing? or not?

Do you believe Calvin and Luther or not? Is faith, believing?

Good luck trusting your denomination.

I don’t need luck. I know that God speaks through the Catholic Church. I know that the Church prays for me in Christ’s stead:

2 Corinthians 5:20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ’s stead, be ye reconciled to God.

Ephesians 3:10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,

Who speaks to you “as though God did beseech you”? Who prays for you ” in Christ’s stead”? Calvin? Luther? Who?

Do you even believe these verses?

Romans 10 vs Protestants

On the Greenbaggins blog, I had the following exchange:

De Maria said,

November 24, 2014 at 10:23 pm

Kevin Failoni said,
November 24, 2014 at 4:40 pm

DeMaria, roberty bob, Romans 10:4 ” Christ is the END of the law FOR righteousness to all who believe. He is the end of the law because He fulfilled the law. ….

Kevin, Romans 10 describes the Catholic Church. Read it with understanding. You are reading it with the presuppositions instilled in you by the followers of Calvin. Listen.

Romans 10

1 Brethren, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved. 2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge. 3 For they being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. 4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

That compares the OT to the Sacraments of the NT. Christ is the end of the Law because it is in the Sacraments that we are saved, if we believe in Christ.

5 For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.

This tells you that the Law of Moses is still efficacious, for those who obey God.

6 But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above:)

These two verses destroy the false doctrine of presumption of salvation.

Here in 6, St. Paul says not to judge yourself or anyone saved. For, in so doing, you are putting Christ down. You are usurping His Role as Judge of Mankind.

7 Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.)

Here, in 7, St. Paul tells you not to condemn any man to hell. For in so doing, you are usurping God’s Role. You are exalting yourself as though you have the power of life and death.

8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;

9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

This is describing what we do in the Sacraments. We profess our faith in Christ and God pours into our hearts the grace of the Holy Spirit.

10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.

There is no difference between the Jew and the Greek because those who hear the voice of God and believe will obey and do His works:

Hebrews 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

That doesn’t say, “pick up the Bible and read for yourself”. That doesn’t say, “pass out bibles and figure it out for yourself.”

That provides the Catholic Teaching which says that we learn our faith from our Priests. They are the ones who preach to us the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?

17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Faith comes from hearing. Not from reading the Bible. From hearing the Church which is the infallible Teaching of the Wisdom of God:

Ephesians 3:10King James Version (KJV)

10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,

What does the Bible say about Purgatory?

Although the word “purgatory” is not found in Scripture.  Scripture points to a place of suffering in the after life:

1 Corinthians 3:10-15

10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.  11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.  12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;  13 Every man’s work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man’s work of what sort it is.  14 If any man’s work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.  15 If any man’s work shall be burned,he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

And Scripture reveals the existence of a spiritual prison where good men go to suffer at the hands of Satan:

Revelation 2:10

10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.

 And Scripture also reveals a place where the dead go for 1000 years.

Revelation 20:5 

But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

And another where Jesus preached to spirits in prison.

1 Peter 3:19 

19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

The Catholic Church has given the name Purgatory to this spiritual prison which Scripture speaks of.