Those Protestants who claim for themselves salvation are fooling themselves. God alone knows who will be saved.

  • RICHARD UK May 9, 2013 at 3:46 pm
    De Maria
    1. Yes, water is an apt symbol of birth, but that does not mean that WATER BAPTISM actually brings about the new birth of a person, as you write.

    Scripture says that it does. Baptism entails water and in Baptism one’s sins are washed away:
    Acts 22:16
    And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

    I know this is why Spanish conquistadors used to spray large groups of captured slaves with water hoses but these things don’t work ‘ex opera operato’.

    1. Let’s stick to the subject.
    2. The Catholic Church does not teach such a thing. So, if the Spanish were doing such a thing, which I doubt, sounds like another anti-Catholic lie, but if they did, it was their own mistake.

    Faith, not a water hose, is the vehicle of grace.

    That is Catholic Teaching.

    2. I know of no scripture that remotely implies that the good thief was baptised into saving faith by the shedding of his BLOOD.

    1. Then you don’t know Scripture. Because suffering with Christ and dying in defense of His name is what we call “Baptism of Blood”. And the Good Thief did both upon the Cross.

    2. You read Scripture differently than do we. We see the spiritual ramifications of the Word of God. Therefore we read the Scripture as the Scripture teaches it should be read:
    2 Corinthians 3:6
    Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

    It is Jesus’ blood that matters,

    That is why we consume His Blood in the Holy Eucharist.

    and it is effective for those who, by grace, have faith.

    And the Thief on the Cross expressed his faith when he defended Jesus against the blasphemous statements of the other thief. In so doing, the Good Thief was baptized of blood, because he died upon the Cross with Jesus:
    1 Peter 4:1
    Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;

    Could anyone imitate Christ more perfectly than the Thief who died with arms spread upon the cross side by side with Jesus?
    Romans 8:17
    And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

    3. God’s means of salvation is by faith in His Son, not by membership of the Roman Church.

    Those who have faith in Jesus Christ become members of the Catholic Church:
    Acts 2:47
    Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.

    There is no need for the mediating role of the Roman church – the bible states our MEDIATOR is Jesus. That was made clear when the temple veil was torn.

    Whether there is a need or not, the Word of God says that those who are to be saved are added to the Church. Read it again, “the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.”

    4. The ‘church’ in its proper sense is the COMMUNION of the saints (ie of believers),

    That is one sense of the word, “church”. But it is not the only sense.

    its composition invisible to all but God.

    1. That is why God knows who is saved, but you don’t.
    2. However, the hierarchy of the Church is visible. That is why we can take our brothers to the Church for infallible decisions about the faith. St. Athanasius and St. Augustine did so, several times, when combatting heresies. And it still goes on today. It is the visible Church which judges infallibly in these cases. And that is in accord with Scripture:
    Matthew 18:17
    King James Version (KJV)
    17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.

    As Paul writes, ‘Not all (visible) Israel is Israel’.

    Precisely. Therefore, not all Christians are Christian. Those Protestants who claim for themselves salvation are fooling themselves. God alone knows who will be saved.

    Not all members of the Roman church are necessarily part of Jesus’ bride, and Jesus’ bride includes true believers who are not in the Roman church (otherwise why does the Pope not try to convert the Archbishop of Canterbury?)

    You’re absolutely right. But you are merely digging a hole for yourself. Because you are proving Protestant doctrine false and at the same time proving Catholic Doctrine true.

    1. You have proven that Protestants can’t know who is saved.
    2. I have shown from Scripture that there are visible elements of the Church, the leadership, to whom we take our brethren who err in judgment.
    3. You have shown that the Catholic Church teaches that salvation is judged by God. And that most heretical baptisms are still valid.

    5. I can understand the psychological reassurance provided by an organised body like the Roman church but to go one step further and insist that church sacramental membership is a guaranteed way (if not the only way) to salvation is unwise

    1. The Church does not teach that the Sacraments guarantee one’s salvation.
    2. Salvation is guaranteed only to the righteous.
    3. And God alone knows who is righteous.

    Sincerely,

    De Maria

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2 comments

  1. Mark T.

    Richard said: “I can understand the psychological reassurance provided by an organised body like the Roman church but to go one step further and insist that church sacramental membership is a guaranteed way (if not the only way) to salvation is unwise” is a PERFECT representation of the misrepresentation of Catholic Sacraments and Salvation.

    The prescription for Salvation has been laid out very clear in throughout the New Testament. Notice I didn’t say “within one line of scripture”. Because Christ taught us very clearly, that we can lose our salvation as did St. Paul. And this brings to mind a question that I would propose to Richard: If faith is so important and strictly necessary for salvation barring all other means, then why does St. Paul tell us that “charity” is the greatest of virtues? Why does Christ and St. Paul (and others) teach us that our faith can be lost?

    God Bless you De Maria!

    Great Post

    Like

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