Your statement simply shows a lack of faith in Christ

  1. RICHARD UK May 8, 2013 at 3:57 pm
    Jason, you quote
    1257 The Lord himself affirms that Baptism is necessary for salvation. …The Church does not know of any means other than Baptism that assures entry into eternal beatitude; this is why she takes care … to see that all who can be baptized are “reborn of water and the Spirit.” God has bound salvation to the sacrament of Baptism, but he himself is not bound by his sacraments.
    My reading of Jn 3 v5 AND 6 is that ‘water’ related to the natural birth of man through his mother’s uterine waters.

    Because one is naturally born through the “uterine waters” of their mother, water is an apt symbol of birth. Therefore, in Water Baptism, the water poured on our bodies signifies and brings about the new birth of the Creature by the Spirit.

    What then matters is subsequently being born of the Spirit. ‘Reborn’ is incorrect and very misleading if it implies that water is an agent of rebirth.

    On the contrary, your statement simply shows a lack of faith in Christ. It is akin to Namaan who denied that God could cure him by the action of washing seven times in the waters of the Jordan. We believe that God can cause our new birth through water.

    This antithesis between earth and heaven is continued in v6 with flesh v spirit.
    The first line of 1257 is clearly wrong because Jesus Himself accepted the thief on the cross into His kingdom unbaptised.

    1. Scripture does not say that the Good Thief was not baptized.
    2. Scripture says that everyone in Judea was baptized by St. John.
    Matthew 3:5-7
    King James Version (KJV)
    5 Then went out to him Jerusalem, and all Judaea, and all the region round about Jordan, 6 And were baptized of him in Jordan, confessing their sins.

    3. Jesus and His disciples also baptized many.
    John 3:22-24
    King James Version (KJV)
    22 After these things came Jesus and his disciples into the land of Judaea; and there he tarried with them, and baptized.

    4. In addition, the Catholic Doctrine says that one may be baptized by blood. The Good Thief definitely meets this criteria since he was crucified alongside Jesus.
    5. Catholic Doctrine also says that one must suffer with Christ to be saved. The Good Thief meets this criteria.
    And finally, Catholic Doctrine says that one is saved if God says that one is saved. Jesus is God and Jesus saved the Good Thief, whether he was baptized or not.

    Fortunately the last sentence of 1257 gainsays the first by removing it as an essential step.
    1257 also states “The Church does not know of any means other than Baptism…” Jesus mentions only belief in John 5 v 24.
    Yes, water baptism is important but I am not even sure that the Great Commission must of necessity mean water baptism as opposed to baptising in/into/with the Spirit

    God has set out a normal means of salvation. By the Church. If anyone strikes out on their own to be saved according to their own ideas, they are on their own. But has been very clear that He saves the obedient:

    Hebrews 5:9
    And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

    I hope you will retain any earlier appreciation that creeds and catechisms are fallible.

    Perhaps. But Catholic Doctrine is infallible because the Church is the Pillar of Truth (1 Tim 3:15).

    This came home to me forcibly when I saw that Catholic Teaching had massaged and thereby set out 10 different Commandments from the ones listed in Exodus (and Deuteronomy)

    They are the exact same Commandments. Protestants have changed some things but the Catholic order is the best.


    De Maria

  2. RICHARD UK May 9, 2013 at 3:06 pm
    De Maria
    The 2nd commandment as given on the tablets of stone to Moses is omitted in Catholic Teaching. (I have a good idea why)
    To make up the number, the 10th commandment is split into two

    That is done because we don’t see women as property. You might want to read about the Ten Commandments. It is very interesting why they are enumerated as they are.

One comment

  1. Mark T.

    NO ONE in Christian history has ever interpreted “water” to mean the flesh of man. I think Richard needs to read the Early Church Fathers. Also, if we apply Richards (and Edwards 🙂 ) “water equals natural birth of man through his Mother’s uturine waters” then Scripture and Jesus have a serious problem. Why? Here’s why:

    According to John 3:5 “Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.” So, according to Richard’s own interpretation and understanding, Jesus Christ is saying to Nicodemus, that one must be born FIRST like a human because “water” means the natural birth of man, AND THEN he/she must be born of the Holy Spirit, otherwise they can NOT enter into the Kingdom of Heaven.

    Does anyone see a problem with this? I do. According to Richard’s interpretation, not even the angels, nor God, Himself can enter into heaven because they were not born like human beings. So, now the question is: where exactly does one find Jesus Christ only referring to the human race and their salvation here in this passage? Because logically according to Richard’s interpretation, the kingdom of Heaven is vacant until men occupy it. By the way…many mammals are born the same as humans via a “uterine water” environment.

    Richard sounds like ole Ed to me. I would like to know why Richard ignores John 3:2

    RE: The Ten Commandments – this is so old an argument and shows a complete lack of research on the opponents part. The Catholic Church never did away with the 2nd Commandment – it simply CAN’T!

    God Bless you De Maria!


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