Prayer to the Saints and to Mary, response to PBJ

I’m still having a discussion with PBJ on the Beggars all reformation website.  Its a busy site, and my messages may be lost amongst the others.  So, I thought I’d bring them to light here.

 PeaceByJesus said…And just where does Scripture state that Mary uniquely was the most blessed among/above women and as having God with her? 

Luke 1:28 And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.

 Well that is fitting, since Mormonic teaching also supports a Heavenly mother. … 

I’m not a mormon, stick to the topic.

 Divine attribute to her or any created being the power to hear virtually infinite prayers addressed to them in Heaven, which only God is shown possessing.   Angels and elders offering up prayers as a memorial does not do it. 

Then, how did they receive those prayers and to what purpose?

Your simple rejection makes no sense here.  You need to be able to explain why you deny what is plain in the Scripture.  Elders and angels received the prayers of the faithful and brought them before God.  That is a powerful illustration of mediation between God and man.

 nowhere teaches or examples (out of over 200 prayers in Scripture e) by anyone except pagans making supplication or making offerings addressed to anyone in Heaven but the Lord.  

But Scripture tells us that those who are faithful to Christ, live although they die.  And Scripture tells us that when we come to the Church, we walk amongst the spirits of men who are made perfect.

John 11:26
and whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

Hebrews 12:22 but ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, 23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

Because we believe these things in Scripture, we, Catholics, turn to our brothers and sisters who have proved their righteousness and have been made perfect in Christ and ask for their intercession:

James 5:16 Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.

 Do you really think the Holy Spirit would be negligent or that God would see no warrant in providing even one prayer by a believer addressed to someone else in glory but the Lord for what is a common practice for Caths? 

That’s because you don’t believe that your brethren are in glory.  If you did, you would admit that they are alive in Christ.  Not only that, but we believe that those who are members of Christ’s body are surrounded by a cloud of witnesses, ready and waiting to give us a helping hand.

Besides, we read the Scriptures differently.

For instance, Scripture says.

Luke 1:28 (DRA)

28 And the angel being come in, said unto her: Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.

Catholics will recognize that as the beginning of the Hail Mary.

Luke 1:42 (DRA)

42 And she cried out with a loud voice, and said: Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb.

Catholics will recognize that as the end of that prayer.

When you read those Scriptures, you say to yourself, perhaps, “how nice.”

When we read those Scriptures, we see that God praised Mary through His Angel and the Holy Spirit praised Mary through a Saint.  These are God’s words.  This is God’s message.  And He commanded that an Angel and a Saint pass this message to Mary.  So, we read that message as a command that we should imitate GOD and praise Mary throughout all generations.  And, in fact, Scripture gives us this precise instruction.

Luke 1:48  (AKJV)

48 For he hath regarded the low estate of his handmaiden:
for, behold, from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed.

 But who instead supplies over 200 to God, and specifically teaches that believers are to pray after this manner, “Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name,” 

We do that as well.  Probably more than you, because we believe in repeating prayers.

  and who sets forth only one heavenly intercessor btwn God and man, that being the Lord Jesus? (1 Timothy 2:5-6)  

You misunderstand what you’re reading.  Jesus Christ is the ONE Mediator because He is mediating by nature.  He is God AND man.

But we are commanded to mediate between Christ and our fellow man.  Read the very same excerpt you provided but with more context:

1 Timothy 2 Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

1 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;

Friend, that’s mediation.  And St. Paul is commanding it for all of us to perform.

 2 for kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. 3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;  

And he says that it is God’s will for us to do.

 4 who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6 who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time. 7 Whereunto I am ordained a preacher, and an apostle, (I speak the truth in Christ, and lie not;) a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and verity. 

Now, understand this, because Jesus Christ is mediator, ST. PAUL is mediating through HIM.  St. Paul, ordained a priest of Christ is, through the Body of Christ, mediating to the Church.

Yea, you guys understand neither the Scripture nor the power of God.

 2 Corinthians 5:18-20Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; 19 to wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. 20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ’s stead, be ye reconciled to God. 

When the Church preaches, it is God beseeching you through the Church.  When the priests of the Catholic Church pray for you, it is Christ praying through them for you.

This is Catholic Teaching 101 and its in Scripture.

 Who alone “was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin, Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need. (Hebrews 4:15-16

That’s actually a reference to the Sacraments, wherein we present ourselves with the disposition of faith and believing are counted as righteous and counted righteous, the saving grace of the Holy Spirit is poured into our hearts and washes away our sin as we call upon His name.

  Who ever liveth to make intercession for them. (Hebrews 7:25)  

That is Catholic Doctrine.  How about this one:

Hebrews 13:17Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

17 Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.

That says that the priest gives an account of your soul?  That, is intercession.  And he can do so because this is an obvious reference to the Sacrament of reconciliation.  This is where we recount our sins to the Priest, who preaches to us in God’s stead and prays for us in Christ’s stead.

 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus, (Hebrews 10:19

That’s a reference to the Holy Eucharist.  Read the rest of that.

 Hebrews 10:19-31Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,  

We receive the body and blood of Jesus in the Holy Eucharist.

 20 by a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh; 

This is a Sacrament, established by Christ, that we may share in His Divine Life, through His flesh.

  21 and having an high priest over the house of God; 22 let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.  

And since we believe in God and have been baptized and had our sins washed away, we may approach the Altar with confidence

 23 Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised;) 

This is a reference to our Public Profession of Faith in the Holy Mass.

 24 and let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:  

This is the preaching of the Priest at every Mass and the mission to we are sent from every Mass.

 25 not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together,  

This is the Mass, which we are not to miss with impunity.

as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.  26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

When we receive the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ in the Holy Sacraments, especially the Holy Eucharist, we receive the knowledge of the Truth.  But if we continue to sin, after receiving His Grace, in the Holy Eucharist, then we have received His Grace in vain and there is no other sacrifice for sins.  It is the only one and if we neglect, there is recourse to no other.

Now, pay attention:
 27 but a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. 

If you miss the Mass and neglect the Holy Eucharist, you will be punished by God.

 28 He that despised Moses’ law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:  

consider that the shadows of the Mosaic law could not be neglected without punishment of death

 29 of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?  

What then, do you expect to happen, if you neglect the Holy Eucharist?  If you miss the Mass and neglect the Holy Eucharist, it is like stepping under your boots, the Body of our Lord which died for you!  And like blaspheming the blood which Christ poured out for you!

 30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. 

Yeah, Catholicism 101, it is a mortal sin to miss the Mass.

 The fact that believers prayed to the Lord Jesus (1Co. 1.2) is a testimony to His deity. 

The fact that we can pray to those who died in Christ is also a testimony to His deity.

 Basing doctrine on arguments from silence places you with Mormons, as does a specious correspondence btwn relations on earthly and btwn heaven and earth by created beings.  

It is not we who base our arguments on silence, but you.  You claim to deny that which is not in Scripture.  But neither Scripture alone nor faith are in Scripture and you accept those doctrines from satan.

 Hearing mental prayers is what only God is shown able to do, while communication btwn created beings from Heaven and those on earth required both parties to be on the same realm.
Thus prayer to departed saints or angels in Heaven is invisible in Scripture and contrary to what it does teach. However, Rome basically is herself.  

On the contrary, Scripture teaches us that our brethren who died in Christ are still alive.  And if they are alive in Christ, they are still mediating for us, in Christ.


I didn’t notice that PBJ had broken his response up into 2 parts, here’s the other.

Blogger PeaceByJesus said…
Revelation 12:17King James Version (KJV)
And just where is this official indisputable RC teaching, and enjoys the unanimous consent of the “fathers?” 

Where is the teaching that disputes it which enjoys the unanimous consent of the “fathers”?

You see, what Protestants don’t understand is that Scripture talks to us on many levels.   As long as they don’t contradict Catholic Tradition, they are acceptable.

The notes in your own NAB Bible state,
The woman adorned with the sun, the moon, and the stars (images taken from Gn 37:9–10) symbolizes God’s people in the Old and the New Testament. The Israel of old gave birth to the Messiah (Rev 12:5) and then became the new Israel, the church, which suffers persecution by the dragon (Rev 12:6, 13–17); cf. Is 50:1; 66:7; Jer 50:12

Do you see a denial there, that this is also Mary?   Pope JPII proclaims Mary Mother of the Church and that can only be a reference to this verse.  And when he does so, he provides many proofs from the Early Church:

According to St Irenaeus, Mary “became a cause of salvation for the whole human race” (Haer. 3, 22, 4; PG 7, 959), and the pure womb of the Virgin “regenerates men in God” (Haer. 4, 33, 11; PG 7, 1080). This is re-echoed by St Ambrose, who says: “A Virgin has begotten the salvation of the world, a Virgin has given life to all things” (Ep. 63, 33; PL 16, 1198), and by other Fathers who call Mary “Mother of salvation” (Severian of Gabala, Or. 6 in mundi creationem, 10, PG 54, 4; Faustus of Riez, Max. Bibl. Patrum, VI. 620-621).
In the Middle Ages, St Anselm addressed Mary in this way: “You are the mother of justification and of the justified, the Mother of reconciliation and of the reconciled, the mother of salvation and of the saved” (Or. 52, 8; PL 158, 957), while other authors attribute to her the titles “Mother of grace” and “Mother of life”.

Who except those with cultic devotion would contrive rebellion as being only thinking of mortals consistent with what is written, (cf.1Co. 4:6) while turning the Mary of Scripture into an almost almighty demigoddess? 

On the contrary, it is we who stay within the letter.  It is we who do our best to imitate Christ.  It is Christ who first ran to Mary and chose her to be His Mother.  And we, the Baptized are born again in the Body of Christ and therefore, she is our mother by virtue of being the Mother of Jesus Christ.  Have you not read in Scripture?

Galatians 2:20
I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless <b>I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: </b>and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Or is that, yet another verse of Scripture which you don’t believe?

Go even find one example of anyone bowing down/ kneeling before a statue and praising the created entity it represented in the unseen world, and as having Divine powers and glory, and making offerings and beseeching such for Heavenly help, directly accessed by mental prayer.
Moses, put down those rocks! I was only engaging in hyper dulia, not adoring her. Can’t you tell the difference?

Moses is OT.  We are in a New Dispensation where we walk with the Saints.  Have you not heard the Good News?!

Hebrews 12:18-24Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

18 For ye are not come unto the mount that might be touched, and that burned with fire, nor unto blackness, and darkness, and tempest, 19 and the sound of a trumpet, and the voice of words; which voice they that heard intreated that the word should not be spoken to them any more: 20 (for they could not endure that which was commanded, And if so much as a beast touch the mountain, it shall be stoned, or thrust through with a dart: 21 and so terrible was the sight, that Moses said, I exceedingly fear and quake:)

22 but ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, 23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, 24 and to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.


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